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'The old order is not coming back,' Carney says in provocative speech at Davos (cbc.ca)
40 points by martythemaniak 10 hours ago | hide | past | favorite | 27 comments




> First, it means naming reality. Stop invoking rules-based international order as though it still functions as advertised. Call it what it is: a system of intensifying great power rivalry where the most powerful pursue their interests using economic integration as coercion.

Nobody leading a western country would’ve dared be this direct about America a decade ago.

The great irony with the current political climate is that America has truly been first for many decades, leading the world order to tremendous financial, military and material success. But nothing lasts forever.

We won’t know for many years if this moment represents America’s true descent into a has-been empire, but the message from our closest allies is very clear: world leaders don’t speak that kind of truth to a power like America unless they mean it.


>world leaders don’t speak that kind of truth to a power like America unless they mean it.

I mean the damage has already been done. By electing Trump a second time, Americans have sent the world a clear and unambiguous message that it wasn't a fluke: They clearly don't want our friendship or value the treaties they've signed.

This is merely Carney calling a spade, a spade.


> ... By electing Trump a second time, Americans have sent the world a clear and unambiguous message

That's how you read it. But the Trump election was americans sending other americans a clear an unambiguous message.


From the transcript:

> We knew the story of the international rules-based order was partially false, that the strongest would exempt themselves when convenient, that trade rules were enforced asymmetrically, and we knew that international law applied with varied rigor, depending on the identity of the accused or the victim.

> This fiction was useful, and American hegemony in particular helped provide public goods, open sea lanes, a stable financial system, collective security, and support for frameworks for resolving disputes.

An interesting observation I came across today:

> The genius of American foreign policy since 1941 was that it found a way to be both the single strongest state and the leader of the strongest coalition of states: power and legitimacy, together. That's the achievement Trump has jeopardized - and possibly permanently wrecked.

* https://x.com/davidfrum/status/2013735844721349115#m

* https://xcancel.com/davidfrum/status/2013735844721349115#m


Yup, the middle powers have to organize and work together to avoid being chum. The economic power is there, and they can shift from purchasing US weaponry (thus paying US workers) into purchasing middle-power weaponry (thus paying middle-power workers). Car/truck plants can be repurposed, and if Ukraine's lesson is valid then smaller, portable weaponry is now the preferred solution. Cheaper, and the middle powers don't have huge investments in tanks and ships.

The Theucydides quote Carney leads with, of course, recently rolled off the tongue of the white house deputy chief of staff, Stephen Miller. The days of might making right are, apparently, back.

Just in case anyone thought the genie could be stuffed back into the bottle once Trump is gone, Carney goes on to state that the rules-based world order we've been living under since WWII is somewhat of a sham. The rules have not been applied equally. Some nations, the powerful ones, have been given much more latitude to do what they want. Middle nations have gone along with this to avoid trouble.

The reward for avoiding trouble for so long is... big trouble (e.g. invasion threats for an ally of a big power and economic terrorism applied to its allies). So, why pretend the old system works to avoid trouble if the trouble lands on your doorstep anyways?

The answer seems obvious. Middle powers of the old rules-based order need to band together and put bigger powers in their place. It's not impossible. Just very, very difficult. France and Germany may be sticking up for Greenland, but where's Hungary (another EU member)? For this to work, you need everyone. Also, looking ahead, how would you prevent such an alliance of smaller powers, were it successful, from behaving like a bigger power?

Trump is currently showing off AI photos where he's meeting with world leaders in front of a map where both Greenland and Canada are a part of the U.S.[1]. As a Canadian, I think Carney gave a stirring speech here, but I suppose I'm biased given that he's our PM and his vision is one of the few things between us as being swallowed up by Trump's MAGA empire while the other big powers fall upon the respective apples of their eyes.

[1]https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/article/trump-shares-altered-m...


The fact we have a system that produced a Trump-like figure, and once in power, haven’t checked him internationally, shows the US will continue to be an unreliable partner.

We have kinds of political problems, and it’s not clear they’re going away post Trump.


Gerrymandering, money in politics, the electoral college, disproportional representation, failing checks and balances.

This isn't going to be solved in a decade, probably not even a couple of decades.


> "Many countries are drawing the same conclusions. They must develop greater strategic autonomy: in energy, food, critical minerals, in finance and supply chains.

Sounds like an economic NATO (without the USA). It's good that other counties are waking up at last. Taking the hit now (and blaming it on Trump) will make them stronger on the long run.


Consider for a few minutes the contrast between Carney's speech and what daily babbles out of Trump's gaping maw. Carney's coherence is refreshing.

the current world split starts to eerily look, while still far from it of course, like the 1939 split in Europe - totalitarian regimes of Stalin and Hitler allied together against Europe's democratic countries. Here we have authoritarian leaning Trump starting to ally himself with totalitarian Putin and China against democratic countries by dividing the world in very similar way as Stalin and Hitler divided Europe between themselves.

This is all eloquent and game-theoretic, but who is this being said too? Other davos attendees, and it will be the small people who must pay for this shift, through rising prices, worse labor conditions, austerity, etc. His astute observation about competing powers running to the lowest common denominator is intrinsically a property of capitalism.

It's a modern stage, it doesn't really matter who is physically there.

The EU aligned countries would be crazy to let the US set these rules for some temporary maintenance of income. They've all tended to social Democrats and socialist governments and have a better lifestyle than the US at half or 1/4 the GDP. That goes away if they let the US set pure power based rules, then 1/2 the GDP really is being half an American and if being a whole American was so great no one would have voted for Trump.


As someone from the US, I thought we were the leaders in choosing strange government figureheads, until Canada elected the head of a foreign bank as their's.

That speech reminds me of the conclusion the main character in the movie Antz settled on. Being forced to be a cog in the machine is awful and no one should accept it. Instead we should be happy to volunteer ourselves to be cogs in the machine.


FWIW he was bank head of Canada before being bank head of uk.

[flagged]


Is that an allusion to changing colours?

So it might have been Chinese before.

I mean it's not just any old foreign bank either though, in Canada the King of England is still our head of state.

At least he can speak coherently and doesn't waffle off topic.

But, y'know, nuclear...!

He only won because trump said he wanted to make Canada the 51st state and the opposition party didn’t pivot or adjust their campaign to Trump’s rhetoric.

Consider that Trump is enough of a fucking lunatic that Canadians voted for the party of Justin Trudeau again.

That seems overly reductive.

He won because:

- the NDP and the CPC were both led by deeply unpopular leaders: Jagmeet Singh the silk clad, Rolex-wearing self styled "man of the people" and Pierre Poilievre who is so dislikeable he routinely polls double digits below his party

- Trump threatening to collapse the Canadian economy and/or annex us by force

- Flat economic growth

- Carney's credentials on the economy being unparalleled in Canadian politics (see previous point)

- Voters tired of the far-left big government nanny state philosophy that was the hallmark of the Trudeau governments and Carney successfully presented himself as a centrist

Interestingly, Carney was appointed to the Bank of Canada by a Conservative PM and I'd argue he's got a similar appeal that Trump initially had, but for different reasons: Trump positioned himself as an outsider, and Carney is similarly not a career politician. By contrast his only real challenger (Poilievre) hasn't had a real job in his life and has been living on the taxpayer's dime his entire career.

I think voters in both the US and Canada are sick of slimy politicians.


There’s probably too much nuance in your answer for most, but thank you for taking the time to write it down.

It’s always interesting to read some thoughtful opinions, especially as an outsider(Australian) looking in.


>Voters tired of the far-left big government....

Ah, yes; that communist fiend, Justin "Al Jolson" Trudeau, seizing all those means and abolishing hierarchies and redistributing the wealth.


>communist

Please quote where I said he was a communist. I'll wait.


Immaterial - no liberal government in Canada could be said to be “far left”.



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